WIRED Global Editorial Director Katie Drummond speaks with MS NOWs Chris Hayes, host of _All In_ and author of 'The Sirens' Call,' about attention as a commodity, the media's role in covering the Trump administration, and his advice for keeping up with the news - including what the left is getting wrong about AI.
WIRED Global Editorial Director Katie Drummond speaks with MS NOWs Chris Hayes, host of _All In_ and author of"The Sirens' Call," about attention as a commodity, the media's role in covering the Trump administration, and his advice for keeping up with the news - including what the left is getting wrong about AI.
although in some cases it seems like they're fishermen.And what's been so striking about itand defensible it is to just essentially murder peopleI mean, there's the iconic shot of they've got Twitter upmaybe as much as 150, 180 who are dead in IranThey're doing it for attentional reasons, right?he has to be doing all the time.Yes. Content machine.and the famous Hearst Papers and the Yellow Press,of the American newspaper era.The sort of history of imperialism is also a historyBut I think yes, their version of it is a very kindYou wrote in a piece for The New York Times,to not be the foot soldiers helping to fuel that dynamic,what decisions do you make about how to approach, let's say,The latest account is 1,000 plus Iranian civilians,of whatever his nonsense isI guess is what I would say in the end.of the American military,And I cover that story every night and the question is,There actually was,Trump administration saw this and they were like,What ended up happening was that they kidnapped peopleAnd you could see there was this Trump backpedalingWe saw you all.Yeah, yeah, yeah, and we can all see it, it's everywhere.And it's all about this, it's about attention.in the early years of industrial capitalism.In both of those technologies,there would be people who would standif you're talking about Times Square or somethingThis is how many people are gonna see it.and then you get, you know, social media and the internet,like when you sell a magazine,or is that when they get up to get a sandwich?and get a sandwich, like you can't really measure that.that you can sell it at is new, right?The micro second auctions that you could runis you don't have to have people making programming choices.and then they, you serve them that over and over.of our Penny Press, you know, The New York Sun,What content will get you to spend eight or nine hoursyou're also on social media, right?Like how do you, I think part of it is sort ofI think there's a few different waysI have been doing it long enough and established,I have a sense of where attention is flowingand then the second levelwhere I'm not real tortured about it.I think that's the most important story.and understand what's going on and-And, you know, that was a three-month story.just keep giving us a plane.Like I just do what I'm interested in the podcastLike I did this thing the other day about the,before the Supreme Court struck him down.And it's unclear to me, Yeah.Well, and I think that's sort of one of the challengesof other cable news shows, you're competing with Mr. BeastEvery piece of content is at every moment pittedbut not if you are trying to-Yeah, I mean, this is the problem.you know, it's very difficult to compete with.for The New York Times I mentioned.You said her core problem was her inabilityI'm curious about your view thereone of the most important pieces of dataSo, and I say this for two reasons.well, the people that consume the most like journalismis for a very long period of time,that's clearly broken down.you know, but a lot of voters that you need are not there.Oh, yes, earned media. Right?I did not pay for this interview.Do the Democrats have a theory?that Donald Trump kinda went everywhere in 2024past paid advertising. Yeah.He just won the nomination to be the Democratic nominee.I wanna say three or four times.and it may be the case for Roy Cooper.I was gonna ask you about James Talarico, yeah, yeah.I think that that is interesting to meLike that's based on who you are that cannot be.That is not going to work.but, you know, when I got to Wired,What does that look like from where you sit?Because there are downsides to those calculationsAnd so I think part of it is that.I just think they're in like the same wayYou know, people that just,maybe they're kind of Right-leading and a Republicanand it almost did something at like a chemical level.So, that's like the final component.they were personally getting radicalized and kind of,I think they're mad at their Woke workers,and then they had this technologywith the fight over Claude and Anthropic.and sort of smart people who look at this in different waysAnd this is legitimately how they feel,the right way to work with governmentand holding on for four years and presenting the presidentthat they need to support and pay and uphold,to different people has been interesting?by any stretch of the imagination, but I think he's just,And I think the folks at Anthropic are interestingNo.is one of the reasons that we sawYeah, you know, it's now a Joe Klein that the,And I also think they thought, you know, again,of like genuinely building a better mousetrap.yeah, this works pretty well, you sell it out,I mean, we've got three more years of this administrationof collaboration, of I'll say collusion, you don't have to,and which they can't come to terms on,Look, these companies, particularly those two,And I think you, people,who are banking on making a world-changing fortune,That is not, I would not say that that is the best setupabout how you're thinking about AI.very sort of overly simplified arguments.You posted on Bluesky that the Left needs to quote,and/or something to that effect and many strong reactions.and there's like- Oh, it's exhausting.like that's a use, that's a very useful perspective.you know, the world in which those are automatedthat there's like a head in the sand kind of falling off-But I also just like, I can see it.A, because Google no longer really works,And it's just like this idea that it's not as insane,This will never, this is just a ridiculous toy.that all of a sudden they are writing book proposals,and I wanna work another 10 or 15 years, I need to work,And that for me, just sitting and having a drink with themto do something and you're paying them $120,000,that can basically replicate that work for 60, 80 or 90.That's the business case.When you get that reaction from the left,It cannot be the case that all of these elitesAnd so what would it look like to you I'm laughing a little bit because I-The big thing I think is it does seem possible to me.What we call knowledge workThere's use cases that already seemI mean, go back to, you know,on the Economic Prospects of Our GrandchildrenIt didn't go that direction,this year, hit the highest share of national incomeI mean, the reason I like the Keynes's essayand the big thing is like, well, what do you want,And that's like real first principle stuff,the same in grace he's not gonna make those callsIt's like, wait a second,It's intentionally being created as a technologyBut before we do,what piece of technology would you love to control?I guess if I trust myself maybe more than Sam Altman's-I mean, yeah, I guess if I could control it,but essentially it's all, you know,Do you just get that big like AI box that people-You also get the big AI box,Well, I just, I wanna get rid of cell phone callsIs it the device being used that you have an issue withbeing patchy and-or your computer just didn't turn on What is that?when you were in 12 or 13 or 14,that landline, you would be hearing your own voiceyou're doing a podcast- Yeah.Cell phones don't have side tone,even though you,because I like to bring side tone into cell,Doctor Answers Women's Health Questions
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